Every brand has a story, but few have a combination of family recipe, story, and legacy quite like Dr. Norm’s.
Dr. Norm was a real person–a well respected M.D. His wife, Audrey, was a professional pharmacist and beloved baker. Their children started a traditional cookie company to honor their mother, and it’s since become one of California’s best selling cannabis cookie and brownie brands.
Today’s guest is none other than one of Dr. Norm’s son and a co-founder of the company, Jeff Koz. We met at MJ Unpacked, and we’re thrilled to have him on the podcast to share the story of his brand and his unique experiences.
In this episode, you’ll find out how Jeff and his sister broke into the cannabis industry, how Jeff and his sister Roberta honed their product and scaled their business, and the innovations shaping the future of the edibles space.
- How Dr. Norm’s kids launched a traditional baking company to honor their parents–and what led them to take a leap into cannabis edibles.
- How Jeff and his sister Roberta learned how to get their flavors and dosages just right with their edibles.
- The challenges of expanding cannabis brands across state lines.
- What Dr. Norm’s is doing to tell an authentic story with their brand while exploring activations, lifestyle marketing, and other outlets.
- Why Jeff thinks we’re still three years away from federal legalization.
- “I have to admit that the idea to move forward was not really based on anything other than a gut feeling. So, I think the fact-finding and gleaning of information, all that happened along the way of you got to figure out what the f*ck we’re doing her” – Jeff Koz
- Dr. Norm’s
- Dr. Norm’s on Instagram
- Jeff Koz on LinkedIn | Facebook | Twitter
- MJ Unpacked
- Green Street
- BDS Analytics
- Punch Edibles
- Pepperidge Farm
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Rick Kiley: All right. Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Green Repeal. My name is Rick Kiley. I’m, as always, joined by my partner in crime, Jeffrey Boedges. What up?
Jeffrey Boedges: Greetings from the land of the Spotted Lanternfly. Yes, I saw my first one. I saw my first one. I squashed it.
Rick Kiley: Is that a firefly? Is that a spotted lanternfly?
Jeffrey Boedges: No. It’s like an invasive moth that happens when your world gets too hot.
Rick Kiley: Well, it has been hot. We did get a little break in the heat wave.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah, a little. Yeah. We have a little day off today. It’s something like 80.
Rick Kiley: But if you haven’t heard, the globe is getting warmer.
Jeffrey Boedges: Exactly.
Rick Kiley: That is something. Well, hopefully, the climate still works for everybody in the cannabis industry. It is a weed, so I am told it grows well. Today, we have a really cool interview lined up. We are welcoming Jeff Koz, one of the founders of Dr. Norm’s, which is a cannabis company baking up a wide variety of precisely dosed and delicious edibles like cookies, brownies, and crispy rice bars. His father, Dr. Norm, a well-respected M.D., and his mother, Audrey, a professional pharmacist with beloved baking skills left behind the perfect recipe for Jeff and his sister, Roberta, to continue to heal others and spread joy with the powers of the cannabis plant and, of course, cookies. Today, what originally started as a traditional cookie company to honor their mother has evolved into one of the best-selling cannabis cookie and brownie brands in California. I had the privilege of meeting Jeff back in May at MJ Unpacked. We had a really cool conversation and very thrilled to be able to speak again with him, to share this brand story and his experience with our listeners.
Rick Kiley: Jeff, welcome to the Green Repeal.
Jeff Koz: Thank you, Rick and Jeff. Great to be here. And I don’t need to answer anything because you gave all the answers.
Rick Kiley: No.
Jeffrey Boedges: We tried to be vague. We were trying to be like vague.
Rick Kiley: No. No. I think one of the reasons I really wanted you to have on this podcast is because we, as you might imagine, speak to many cannabis businessperson, a lot of people who are creating brands. And I was really drawn to your brand story, which I know that I don’t do justice to it. So, I would love for you to just give our listeners really the details on how Dr. Norm’s came to be. I really love hearing this story. I’m just going to sit back and crack open a sparkling water and listen to you talk.
Jeff Koz: Or maybe light up something. Who knows?
Rick Kiley: Well.
Jeffrey Boedges: It wouldn’t be the first time.
Jeff Koz: Or drop a fast-acting edible. Okay. Well, my disclaimer is I can get a little long in the tooth. So, if I start to…
Jeffrey Boedges: You’re talking to the choir.
Rick Kiley: Yeah. We’ll give you one of these.
Jeff Koz: Yeah. Bring out the cane.
Jeffrey Boedges: We have a musical score that we just start. If like the Oscars music starts to play, you know.
Rick Kiley: What’s your least favorite song? I’ll just start humming it when it’s time. Do the Kars for Kids Jingle?
Jeff Koz: Yeah. Okay. They have that back there, too, huh?
Jeffrey Boedges: Oh, yeah.
Rick Kiley: Oh, yeah.
Jeff Koz: Okay. 1-800, never mind. Okay. The brand story of Dr. Norm’s. Well, Dr. Norm was actually a real person, and he was my father. And you said the company was started by myself and my sister. So, we’ll go deep into the history of how that all happened. But a lot of people are very surprised when they hear that it’s our dad, number one. His face is on every product that we have ever made and he was very funny. And so, he’s probably thinking or saying up there, “Where the hell is my money?”
Jeffrey Boedges: He’s looking for his 10%, man. Same goes with the house.
Rick Kiley: You don’t need money in heaven, dad.
Jeff Koz: He was a funny guy, and he would be saying something like that and sort of nodding approval, we hope. So, anyway, we grew up in Los Angeles, in the San Fernando Valley, if anybody knows where that is. And my dad was a local MD back in the days where you went to a doctor versus a medical corporation with lots of doctors. And so, he really gave personal family, humorous care to his patients and that really rubbed off on us for sure. And our mom was also a healthcare professional. She was a pharmacist, a hospital pharmacist, and raising three kids at the time so she was superwoman. And her thing was baking these chocolate chip cookies that were pretty fabulous, that everybody knew her far and wide. You know, her name was Audrey. Audrey makes these amazing cookies. So, if you guys were over at our house, you would sample a couple or 10 or 15 of her cookies, and you would bond with her and you guys would be talking. And when you were leaving, she’d have a plate of cookies for you. She’s like, “Oh, I know you enjoyed these so much.” And I think Roberta says this a lot, she felt that the best prescription in that she was a pharmacist was chocolate chip cookies. And you said something like that in your intro.
Rick Kiley: Yeah.
Jeff Koz: So, very much the case. So, unfortunately, she passed away. Our dad passed away many years before but our mom passed away rather unexpectedly, rather suddenly. And this was right around the time that my sister, who had been a VP at MTV Networks for 20 years, right around the time that she had left to raise her kids. And she is a very warm, thoughtful, sentimental person, Roberta, unlike her brother. And she thought that she would learn how to bake our mom’s chocolate chip cookies as a way to honor her. And she felt that the cookies had to live on past her. So, it was a wonderful thought. Never baked a day in her life. So, she started baking cookies and they were fabulous. She sort of reverse engineered. Can I share a little secret because I know nobody’s going to tell it?
Rick Kiley: Sure. Yeah. Do it.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah.
Jeff Koz: Audrey’s recipe actually started with a Betty Crocker chocolate chip cookie mix. That goes to the grave, guys, okay?
Rick Kiley: Okay.
Jeffrey Boedges: Well, all 400 of our listeners. You, guys, keep it quiet.
Jeff Koz: Keep it down. No, I think that’s actually a pretty cute story. And so, anyway, Roberta reverse engineered her cookies, learned how to bake them, started to make them, and they were fantastic as my moms were. And then very early years my brother still is a very well-known saxophone recording artist, and she likes to think that her cookies really helped his career because they went to all the promotion people, all the record industry guys, radio programmers. So, anyway, and I would give them to my clients. I was in the music industry also. And so, from those humble beginnings, there were a few different iterations along the way but ultimately, she’s a smart lady. She got her cookies into Whole Foods, and eventually Whole Foods sprouts, Costco, Stater Bros, Albertsons, Vons, and more. So, these cookies were really effing good. Are you allowed to curse on this?
Rick Kiley: Yes, please.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah. It’s like cable.
Jeff Koz: Heck, fiddlesticks, I love her cookies. Anyway, so she was doing her cookie business. I was so proud of her, so excited. And I also have a little, I dabble in the marketing and branding areas and so I forced myself upon her to help with that sort of thing. And we were rocking and rolling and one day I was at her home in Calabasas, California, and she said the words to me and I quote, “We should do weed cookies.” And this was completely out of the blue for me and a total joke for her. And she’s like, “I’m joking.” And I said, “Roberta, that’s probably one of the best ideas you’ve ever had and that I’ve ever heard.” This was 2015. California was voting on legalization in 2016. There’s probably very, very little competition in the space. So, as an opportunist, I just saw like a great potential here.
Rick Kiley: Sure.
Jeff Koz: And she said, “Get out of my home.”
Rick Kiley: But she gave you a plate of cookies to take with you, right?
Jeff Koz: Yeah, probably. They’re just always out so you can grab them as needed. So, yeah, she asked me to politely or impolitely leave but basically said, “Look, if you feel strongly about this and you can get something going, by all means get back to me.” But she was like, “We don’t know anything about cannabis and I’m not a drug dealer, etcetera.”
Jeffrey Boedges: Not knowing anything about cannabis is certainly not a litmus test anyone has to pass because I think right now everybody we’ve spoken to who’s in cannabis two years ago didn’t know a thing either. So, that seems to be sort of par for the course.
Jeff Koz: It’s really interesting, actually, not to go down a tangent, but so many people…
Jeffrey Boedges: That’s my middle name, by the way. Tangent.
Jeff Koz: Okay. Good. Me too. That so many people, as you say, got into this by accident and I would consider this a happy accident that had she not said to me that day that one day we should do weed cookies, we wouldn’t be talking right now. It’s amazing. I always get these chills and I swear to God on the back of my neck when I tell that aspect of it that is it a lucky coincidence or is there possibly some fate attached to this? So, perhaps our parents are right now tickling the back of my neck? You know, we do these trainings where we go into the stores and talk to the budtenders, and every single time I tell the story, I get those little tickly things.
Jeffrey Boedges: That’s better. I get like a smack on the back of the head.
Jeff Koz: If that works. That’ll know if someone’s listening to you.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Jeff Koz: So, anyway, yeah. So, we like to think and Roberta, as I said, is a bit more sentimental than I by nature and she has always felt that we have been guided by our parents in what we’re doing with this company in this business. And over time, I am fully on board with that. There have been so many things that have happened that we could have gone out of business 12 different times, maybe more, or gotten in trouble or this happened or that, and somehow we made it through. And a lot of the time we’re like, “If mom and dad are up there, they’re kind of watching over.”
Jeffrey Boedges: That’s great.
Jeff Koz: I went out. I’m sorry. Were you guys…
Jeffrey Boedges: No. I just said that’s great. I think that’s cool. I’m not a huge spiritualist per se but I know I’ve had a lot of conversations around that type of inspiration recently, and I think it’s great. I just think it’s an interesting way, an interesting phenomena that seems to be out there right now and maybe it’s always been and maybe I’m just more in tuned to it.
Jeff Koz: Yes, 100% agree. And Roberta is a bit more, oh, I just lost my train of thought, which is very, very easy to do.
Rick Kiley: It’s the first time a guest on this podcast has ever lost their train of thought. I promise you. We’ve broken new ground here today.
Jeffrey Boedges: We were going to get a stenographer so that we could, “Could you read that list bit? Thank you.”
Jeff Koz: We used to say we’ll fix it in the mix.
Rick Kiley: Yeah.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah.
Jeff Koz: And also, it’s coincidentally, this is a cannabis podcast, so I’m sure nobody ever forgets what they’re talking in these things.
Jeffrey Boedges: No. That’s why we say we need a stenographer. Yeah.
Rick Kiley: Yeah. So, what I’m curious about is, you know, I heard you say you had this notion when she said weed cookies that you were under the impression that there’s probably not a lot of competition in the marketplace. When you finally did put pen to paper or submit your license, when you did start this thing and went into it, did you find that it was an attractive, competitive landscape for you? Did that hypothesis bear out or were there a lot of others, a lot of other cookie companies trying to make it work or brownie companies, edible companies that were dealing with food rather than gummies, I guess?
Jeff Koz: I have to admit that the idea to move forward was not really based on anything other than a gut, like, “Oh, this is cool. We should do this.” So, I think the fact-finding and gleaning of information, all that that you’re talking about happened along the way of like you got to figure out what the f*ck we’re doing here.
Rick Kiley: Yeah.
Jeff Koz: So, firstly, I didn’t know how to bake cookies, so my sister taught me because she wanted no part of this. And then I went around and I do have to say that it’s a very different business than it was in 2015 and I’m in California. I’m talking about, you know, because we had that limited immunity Proposition 215. So, there were cannabis stores everywhere and there was a real community. It was a community that was very supportive of one another. And literally, all I had to do is say to people, “I want to make weed cookies.” “Oh, you should go talk to this person. You should talk to that person.” And eventually, I wound up on the doorstep of this company called Green Street, which is a pretty well-known marketing agency now amongst other things. But this was in their humble beginnings, and they love the idea and the brand concept and everything. And so, I guess I’m finishing the story now. Roberta came along with me to a meeting with these guys who are like all in. And I wanted them to help us design the product and release it and promote, bake, launch it. And she stands up in front of the meeting and I know we’re not on a visual right now but her arms go into the air and she’s like, “I’m in.” And she sort of got the opportunity.
Jeffrey Boedges: She saw the light.
Jeff Koz: The light. So, I was pretty excited about that.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah. She called to John Belushi.
Jeff Koz: I’m pretty excited about that. But to answer your question, as I said, we discovered a lot of stuff as we delved into what was going on out there. I mean, a bunch of stuff. That’s my watch talking. Sorry. Shush, Siri. There were a number of things which actually factored into what our brand is all about by what we saw. So, here we are. We’re not young. I can see you guys and I got a year or two on you. So, we’re not young people. So, we’ve had other careers and we’re approaching this maybe a little bit more.
Jeffrey Boedges: Corporately, yeah.
Jeff Koz: I mean, not corporately, but pragmatically than…
Jeffrey Boedges: Right. Structured
Rick Kiley: Than you average person that as a young person saying, like, “I want to do some weed products.” So, we looked at everything out there and we bought a bunch of stuff and we noticed some pretty glaring things to us, again, being sort of from outside the industry looking in. So, they were basically taste, dosage, packaging. So, we just saw like I mean on the packaging end, most of the products available at the time were something in a cellophane wrapper with a sticker on it and didn’t say anything about ingredients, instructions for use, lab testing. So, A, it looked very like…
Jeffrey Boedges: Homemade.
Jeff Koz: Yeah, homemade, the antithesis of Whole Foods, right? Packaging on the shelf. And then, as I say, so no information on the package about, let’s say, dosing. So, you got, I mean, just a wide variety of different dosages put claim dosages, by the way, because there’s no proof of this.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah. There’s no testing.
Jeff Koz: I mean, there are no laws and oversight on it so you got 1,000-milligram this and a 500-milligram, 300-milligram, and we’re afraid to try anything. But the idea is like starting to talk to people about it. How do you do it? Like how do you dose yourself as a cannabis user doing edibles? Well, I just break off a piece. Well, how much when you break off a piece? I don’t know. Well, what happens? I don’t know. Like, it could be a terrible worse experience or it could be like I didn’t get high at all. Oops, I’m in a room and somebody is knocking on the door. Hang on one sec.
Jeffrey Boedges: We’ll fix this in the mix.
Rick Kiley: 1-8-7-7 Kars for kids.
Jeffrey Boedges: We take Kars for kids.
Jeff Koz: There’s not a lot of quiet zones in this where we manufacture our products. Anyway, so people at that time had no idea what kind of dose they were ingesting hence this horrible stigma with edibles that we still have two years into legalization.
Rick Kiley: Yeah.
Jeff Koz: So, again, we’re not youngsters and we’ve had a lot of experience in business so it begs the question, how could I make a product that I’m going to sell to you that you could have potentially a horrible experience, have a panic attack, want to check yourself into the hospital, want to not move out of your bedroom for three days? I’m sure you guys have had edible stories of your own.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah. Edible, some smoking, some concerts that I left in the middle of. Yeah. Sure.
Rick Kiley: I’ve got a great edible story but it had to do with the chocolate bar and not figuring out how to get home and falling asleep in a strange place. Like, yeah, those stories exist.
Jeffrey Boedges: Most of them go like this. I took it. I didn’t feel anything. So, I took another one.
Rick Kiley: So, I took the rest. Yeah.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah. And then I got hit by a trolley. Blamo. I mean, it is flat as a pancake.
Jeff Koz: Exactly. It seems like every cannabis person has that story. Anyway, we just sort of couldn’t believe it that this was the state of affairs at that point. So, we decided right then and there, I mean, our mom and dad are frickin watching up there. And Roberta is a very – conservative is not the right word but it’s very, very important to her that high integrity, myself included. And as I said before, what I was saying, which is we couldn’t in good conscience create a product that is harmful potentially or the opposite, which people also said, you take a bite of it and there’s no effect at all because it wasn’t really homogenized and all the THC happens to be on the other side of the cookie. Twice as strong over there.
Jeffrey Boedges: Don’t eat that one chocolate chip. It’s the one that gets you.
Jeff Koz: Exactly. So it was, in a word, a sh*t show in the industry in the I say early days but it’s really not that many years ago. So, that one piece was the dosage and we decided there had to be a better way. The other piece was taste. So, I don’t know if you guys remember back in those days but all edibles tasted like weed, hard stop, period, like really bad.
Jeffrey Boedges: We had some homemade stuff on the way to Rick’s bachelor party. I remember I was like, “Oh, this is horrible.”
Jeff Koz: That’s a very good description. And that’s how we felt. But that’s all there was. And so, the same thing was like, well, we bake cookies. We know how to do this. People buy these because they’re delicious. Our mom made these frickin delicious cookies. So, how could we in our right mind put out a product that taste terrible? So, those were like the two states of the industry that were just glaring to us and wanted to address.
Jeffrey Boedges: Can I ask you a couple of questions? The first is on dosage. I was looking at your packages. You guys have some pretty stiff drinks in there, so to speak. I mean, you got some 100-milligram cookies. You got, sorry, well, you got was it 10, 20, and 100s, right?
Jeff Koz: Right.
Jeffrey Boedges: Like a 100-milligram cookie would probably be enough for me for a week, maybe two.
Rick Kiley: Right.
Jeffrey Boedges: But you have a couple of different options, so I’m guessing they sell for you.
Jeff Koz: Right. So, early on we came up with this slogan, “Know your dose.” So, in the beginning, we were just selling 5 and 10-milligram cookies that nobody wanted. But over the years we’ve realized that people with really high tolerance is out there. And so, this 100-milligrams single cookie was sort of at least throwing a bone to these people that used to be able to find a product for 500 milligrams or 1,000 milligrams because they had super high tolerances. So, we’re basically offering what people want and need and 100 milligrams isn’t even enough for a lot of people. But you said like if I eat that whole cookie, I’d be right there in the ward next to you.
Jeffrey Boedges: Oh, man. I’m a 5-milligram guy, and like I’ve never been a huge like everyday person, but 5 is really good for me. So, when I hear a hundred, I’m thinking 20 of those, I would be, yeah. I wouldn’t really have a cogent conversation at that point.
Jeff Koz: But it’s really all about tolerance.
Rick Kiley: So, how big? Well, what percentage of your market then is like high tolerance people? I have a hard time sort of contextualizing what percentage of the weed consumer marketplace is people that would consume 100 milligrams a day, let alone in a sitting. Is it a lot?
Jeff Koz: Yes. I mean, my data here is going to be a little bit more anecdotal than…
Jeffrey Boedges: Which is fine.
Jeff Koz: But I actually just was looking yesterday because we got this new software. And so, I was just looking at our best-selling products. And by what margin is that best-selling product over the next product and all that? And I did notice that towards the top of the list were a number of our max cookies, which are the 100 milligrams, surprisingly so that the 10-milligram cookies were lagging a little bit but the 10-milligram chocolate chip because it’s that traditional flavor. But surprisingly, large number percentage-wise of our products, our better sellers, the 100 milligrams.
Rick Kiley: Is it a price per potency issue too maybe? Like, without knowing your pricing, is a 100-milligram cookie is it ten times more expensive than a 10-milligram cookie, right?
Jeff Koz: It’s not you’re saying?
Rick Kiley: Yeah. Like, I would imagine that price per potency, if you’re getting a 100-milligram cookie, you’re getting…
Jeffrey Boedges: Price per milligram.
Rick Kiley: More concentrated THC per dollar.
Jeffrey Boedges: Or getting better THC value at 100 milligram.
Jeff Koz: Absolutely. Put another way, our cookies because we’re making baked goods with great ingredients and not cutting corners, they cost a lot to make, up the THC. So, if we can make one cookie and sell it to you with 100 milligrams or we have to make ten cookies, our cost of goods goes down considerably. So, those are sold cheaper. So, for the high tolerance person, those are a much better value, as we said.
Rick Kiley: What do you got for the person that wants to just have like 5 milligrams but then eat like 20 cookies? Like, do you have like one special cookie in a package of, like, regular cookies that just like goes down?
Jeffrey Boedges: For the roomie user is what we say.
Jeff Koz: Yeah, for sure. I mean, we started again really low dose. And our first two products, we made a 20-cookie bag of 5 milligrams. So, 20 cookies equals 100. 100 milligrams by the way in California is the max for edible. Don’t get me started on that whole thing but, basically, the lawmakers don’t think we can be responsible and dose ourselves appropriately, even though you can take 1,000 milligrams of a tincture, etcetera, etcetera. But what was the question again?
Rick Kiley: 1-8-7-7 Kars for kids.
Jeffrey Boedges: No, but you answered the first question but my second question is about taste. And this is something I’ve not really discussed. And I have a number of gummy edibles and I noticed that some of them you can still taste the weed and some of them you can’t taste it at all. So, I never know. Is it a masking process or are you working with that flavor like, say, maybe like a blender of scotches or wines would where they’re saying, “Okay. This is the natural flavor that’s coming in with this ingredient. How do we complement that to shift it?” What’s the process of making something that’s weed edible that tastes good?
Jeff Koz: So, I mean this sort of feeds into exactly what I was saying about sort of like what makes us different or what were the concerns that we wanted to address so taste being a huge thing. So, you’ve nailed it. Interestingly enough, the mentor person that I was dealing with because I didn’t know anything said, “Well, here’s what you use for edibles in California. Everybody uses this. It’s called crude. It cost $4 a gram. It’s cheap. You know, it works.” Yeah, but it tastes like weed was what I’m thinking or what I found out later, people are used to that. And really that was the way people thought back then was like, “Well, I want my edible to taste like weed so I know there’s weed in it.” And again, we thought makes no sense to us. So, we discovered this stuff called distillate, which is a THC extraction that is also distilled. When it’s distilled, it pulls out the other cannabinoids and it pulls out all the terpenes. And basically, all you’re left with is a pretty pure THC in this very thick honey-like, like ten times as viscous as honey and it has very little weedy taste.
So, this was extremely rare when we started out and we sort of happened onto it by chance. And we’re like, “My God, you don’t taste the weed in these cookies.” So, like mission accomplished and that was our thing. So, it’s very much kind of broken down into like do you use cannabutter, which is infused with actual plant? So, really hard to get rid of the taste there all the way over to use distillate which has very little taste but also to answer part of your question, part of it is the ingredients, the masking, the fact that we use a lot of fat in our products, which some don’t so that covers some of the taste. But there’s also all these like in between things now with like solventless so there’s rosin, there’s live resin. You see like coming up live resin gummies and etcetera. So, those do have a weedy taste because they’re not cannabutter and they’re not distillate. So, they’re somewhere in between. So, you do taste.
So, now it’s getting interesting because some of the products you taste more weed than others. And there’s a reason for it in that you can’t have a solventless extract without having a solventless extract. So, it tastes like the cannabinoids that are in the plant. So, that’s harder to cover up. So, you’re expecting that. So, we haven’t really yet ventured into, but I know we’re going to products that are going to have a more pungent taste, pungent isn’t the right word, but a little weedy taste.
Jeffrey Boedges: A little more weedy taste.
Jeff Koz: Unavoidable based on what you’re putting into it. Because, as I said, the distillate has THC, period, and cannabutter all the way over here has all minor cannabinoids, etcetera. So, now we’re adding stuff back or creating edibles out of different substances. And so, those have different tastes, too.
Jeffrey Boedges: Have you thought about a brand name? Because how about Weedies? But we make it just a little different.
Jeff Koz: Do you mention that to every guest?
Jeffrey Boedges: Oh, man, I have 100 bad ideas every single podcast.
Jeff Koz: And how many brands are out there?
Jeffrey Boedges: How many lawsuits have I gotten? Not that many.
Rick Kiley: Yeah.
Jeff Koz: So, yeah. So, how did you do it? We like to think that we have our own version of cracking that code. And we have said since day one, I mean, you hardly taste the weed in our edibles. And that is a huge piece of our taste component of kind of what we’re about.
Rick Kiley: Oh, it’s great. So, well, let’s just run through some of these other products because we have, of course, the original chocolate chip recipe but we know that you haven’t stopped there. There are some other products, brownies, and I think Rice Krispies. And you told me a story about how the Rice Krispie came to be. I’m just curious as to what’s the process about deciding to launch a new product. Where do those ideas come from? Is it your team just saying like, “Hey, alright, let’s expand. Let’s go for another flavor of cookies or let’s go into brownies?” Or is it a retail partner who’s telling you, “We’d like this?” Or are you looking at some market research saying, “I see that brownies are being consumed like crazy, so we need a brownie?” How do those decisions come to be and what else is in the product mix?
Jeff Koz: I hate to say this, but all of the above. So, I would say the majority of the early days were based on that just like, “We should do this,” and almost not enough forethought in it. I mentioned Roberta before. She’s a genius. I mean, hopefully, she won’t listen to this and hear me bragging so heavily. The woman is genius.
Jeffrey Boedges: There’ll be no living with her.
Jeff Koz: With different products and different flavors and sort of really a chip off our mom who was really a genius at what she did. So, she sort of, what do you call a channel, channel all that stuff. So, it’s more of a spontaneous thing from a person like, “Yeah. We should do brownies. I think we should have brownies.” “Oh, that’s a great idea.” So, in the beginning, there was whatever. And then as we’ve evolved, I can say a lot of the other types of factors that you mentioned go into play. So, it’s relationships with stores, going in and doing budtender education, and talking with budtenders about what’s selling, trends. You know, looking at market data from the BDS of the world and our own sales like what products are doing well and what aren’t. Is there seasonal stuff? Is it affected by weather? And people don’t necessarily want to have a big old brownie on a 110-degree day. So, a lot of different factors, which I could, you know. And then you mentioned also a retailer mentioning what they’re looking for. And that story that I told you. I mean, can I tell that story?
Rick Kiley: Yeah. Why not?
Jeff Koz: I mean or should I leave the name of the large retailer?
Rick Kiley: It’s up to you. You want to spread the love? This is your platform. Spread the love. Say thanks to the person who’s been a good partner. Go nuts.
Jeff Koz: All right.
Rick Kiley: We have allegiances to everyone in the industry. We want to see the industry succeed as a whole. So, all ships rise on the rising tide. Is that it?
Jeffrey Boedges: Float.
Rick Kiley: Float on the rising tide.
Jeff Koz: There was this janitor in Philadelphia. No. Just kidding. So, here we are. Yeah, we’re making cookies. By the way, we expanded our cookie lines to just into multiple flavors and multiple doses and all that stuff. But as far as the Rice Krispies, legend has it that we did not make them. And we had a fantastic relationship with MedMen from the very beginning, when they had one store in Woodland Hills. And they were, I mean, God, talk about fast growth but they were just super supportive from day one and very, very much my sister’s relationship and just a super close trusting relationship, which says a lot in these days, too, right? And so, they were looking, this is a couple of years ago, they were looking at adding a Rice Krispie to their menu, which they did not have. They tried every Rice Krispie product in California, and they didn’t like any of them. So, the buyer at the time and a good friend calls my sister, Roberta, and says, “Tell you what, if you guys made Rice Krispies and we think you’ll do a great job, we’ll be your customer. We’ll buy them. What do you say?” And of course, her thing is, “Of course, we make Rice Krispies.”
Rick Kiley: Sure.
Jeff Koz: We could do that all day long. So, again, she’s pretty amazing. And like literally within a month, she had a finished Rice Krispie product in three flavors. And we’re down to MedMen and having them try it and they love them. And the rest is history.
Rick Kiley: Great.
Jeffrey Boedges: So, how do you test something, right? Because it’s like especially if it’s 100-milligram, you test it, and then you can test again in a couple of days. So, how do you do something like that? Or do you have a panel? Like, I’m bringing in like these four guys from the neighborhood that taste these and see what they think.
Jeff Koz: Well, you’re talking about people like me.
Jeffrey Boedges: You’re inventing the Rice Krispies cookie or Rice Krispie treats, right? So, it’s like that’s live.
Jeff Koz: There are these stoner, high tolerance people that might eat a whole Rice Krispie, but several answers to your question. Number one is non-medicated version. So, that’s really what you play with the recipe and get it how you love it and then you add the weed later. So, that, I’d say is like 90% of the R&D of a product and then add weed and there’s maybe another 10% in tweaking that and getting rid of the taste and all that. So, did that answer your question?
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah. I just thought everything you made was live ammo. And so, I was like, “Wow, how do you do all.”
Jeff Koz: You got to figure it out before you go into the live.
Jeffrey Boedges: Got it.
Jeff Koz: Or else, yeah, you’d never get any work done.
Jeffrey Boedges: Trust me, we barely do right now. So, it’s like, yeah, that wouldn’t help.
Rick Kiley: Awesome. So, we know that you’re big in California. That’s your home and you’re in, I think you told me something, the number, around 400 retailers. Am I high? About 400 retailers in California. So, that’s a super mature brand in California. And we know that you’re looking at expanding beyond California. Given that every state has its own set of laws and regulations and you have to kind of go through all of that licensing state by state, can you talk to us about where you are in your process and what you’re encountering when you’re trying to do that?
Jeff Koz: Sure. And being my preface to that is we’re a small company, so we don’t have a staff to be going out and exploring this and talking to people and making deals. So, it’s been difficult to do it at any kind of rapid pace.
Rick Kiley: Well, before you go on, let me say, so small company, also, I hear independent company so I might understand like it’s primarily you and your sister who are the engines that are driving this ship. You probably have some investors, but we’re not talking about a big corporate entity here that’s raising capital and a multistate operator or anything like that. I’m just trying to…
Jeff Koz: I think there’s a bunch of angles on that, but being a smaller company might be a little bit harder to be taken seriously or like a large– there’s all kinds of different entities out there that one would be interested in. But like a large MSO, for example, you got to do a lot to get their attention. I mean, if you’re selling $20 million gross revenue in California, that gets a lot of people’s attention. So, there’s that. But also, you ask what’s our process.
So, for example, at MJ Unpacked where we met, that was a great venue because you have operators from all over the country, probably concentrated on the East Coast since we were there initially. But they’re there to have conversations. And we had it pretty clearly marked on our setup there that we’re looking for distribution in other states.
Rick Kiley: Right.
Jeff Koz: So, we had some really good conversations. And actually, one of those conversations, I can’t mention any names, but they’re a very, very smart company. Very smart. And their idea is to create a portfolio of brands and shop it as a portfolio with manufacturing solutions, with distribution solutions, with sales and marketing solutions already in place. So, it’s much more of a plug-and-play. So, that is very, very appealing to us as opposed to what you were mentioning before, which is like figure out who you know in Michigan, make a bunch of trips to Michigan, have a bunch of meetings. These aren’t the right people. That’s a lot of time and energy.
So, if you can partner with a company that’s sort of done all that heavy lifting, that’s pretty amazing. So, we’re excited about that, but we’re not anywhere near in business and implementing that. And then also, we do have some conversation that’s going on in different states, people that we’ve met along the way or people that we’ve researched or people that we’ve been referred to.
And then the third piece to that is our partner over here, Punch Edibles. So, we manufacture in their facility out here in Chatsworth, California. And they have just made the move to Oklahoma. So, they have their own manufacturing facility, all the equipment, the sales and distribution all set up. And so, I’d say it’s highly likely that that will be our first place because we have a trusted partner and we can kind of go in there and do our thing and train everybody, and hopefully, it all works smoothly.
Rick Kiley: Right. So, in Oklahoma, in this example, will Dr. Norm’s then go and get a license to be sold in the state independently? Or will you be part of these other brands, portfolio, punches, sort of– will you be on someone else’s license, I guess, is the question?
Jeff Koz: Yes. Well, technically, they’re manufacturing so they are licensing our intellectual property which is our recipes and our packaging and all that stuff.
Rick Kiley: Got it.
Jeff Koz: And they’re manufacturing. So, they’re manufacturing under their license. So, that’s really not a consideration. I’m not a lawyer.
Rick Kiley: Right. And then the relationship as it unfolds, you’ve manufactured the product there, they’ve manufactured it, they packaged it, they’ve used your recipes, will then you stay involved on the advertising and marketing side? Will that be like made consistent from California to the other states where you’re doing this so that it’s kind of like a McDonald’s franchise in my mind, whereas like there’s a brand marketing entity but individuals like operating their organization?
Jeff Koz: Right.
Rick Kiley: Alright, cool.
Jeff Koz: And the advertising is geared in a McDonald’s case to the demographics of where they are as well.
Rick Kiley: Sure.
Jeff Koz: They advertise to different people in Texas than you would in Vermont or the tone of your advertising. But to answer your question, yes, we would be involved to whatever extent working on it. And then…
Rick Kiley: Yeah. So, the licensing deal is like you make money when they sell a lot of products, you haven’t sold it. And so, there you go, guys. Thanks for my cash, and go take this brand. You like haven’t sold them the rights to your brand? It’s a symbiotic relationship. Got it.
Jeff Koz: Into that route or you can go like a JV route, where you kind of work together and you split profits in some way. I mean, I’m sure there are a bunch of other ways to structure it, but I think those are the main two. We’ll be obviously very involved initially in quality control and teaching everyone still on how to do it. And then we’ll kind of have some oversight, I would imagine, on the branding and marketing side as well. But we haven’t done it yet, so I don’t know what I’m talking about.
Jeffrey Boedges: Now, do you guys have a strategy, though, where it’s like you get the cookie that gives you the munchies, and then you have like a bunch of non-weed-loaded cookies so that people can satisfy that? Or is it just the whole cycle…
Rick Kiley: And they just say this like 20 minutes ago? It’s like, I want the thing where you have the cookie and then the other cookies.
Jeffrey Boedges: Well, yeah, oh, I thought you were saying all of them were going to be…
Rick Kiley: No, I was like, I want one weed cookie to come with a pack of like 20 other cookies to chow down on.
Jeff Koz: All I can say to that is if only, from day one, people say, like, these cookies are so good, but I can’t eat five of them or ten of them. So, we wanted to make non-medicated versions and sell them to the stores. But at the end of the day, this is a business and shelf space and cost and markup and everything else. So, we would love nothing more than to be able to do that. But unfortunately, there’s just not an opportunity in the cannabis marketplace.
Jeffrey Boedges: So, are you still running the non-weed-loaded cookies out there? Hopefully, you would so I could still go to my local head shop and then go to whole foods and get my cake and eat it, too.
Jeff Koz: We actually, a few years back, decided to shutter Audrey’s cookies.
Rick Kiley: Oh, no.
Jeff Koz: Put mom out of business, but we kept dad. I think it was a combination but tremendous amount of bandwidth to try to manage all that. But I think the bottom line is small fish in an enormous pond or bigger fish in a kind of growing pond. We saw more opportunities competing against the brands in this space rather than Pepperidge Farm.
Rick Kiley: Got it.
Jeffrey Boedges: I was thinking more like Keebler. That would be really weird. It’s like a big elf came to, like, say, hey, you’re kind of in my business.
Jeff Koz: We could do a whole show on the Keebler Elf.
Jeffrey Boedges: For sure, man. For sure.
Jeff Koz: We’d have to get pretty hot, but we…
Jeffrey Boedges: It would still be funny.
Rick Kiley: Would we know? I’m not even sure we would have to. I mean, I would just do that for fun. So, which states are next on your list? Are you being very selective in terms of where you’re trying to expand? Do you have a plan that’s like one state every year, half year, quarter? How are you thinking about the rollout? Or is it just let’s see where the opportunities come and evaluate as they come?
Jeff Koz: I would say a little of each, definitely opportunity-based, like this relationship with this multistate concept company came as an opportunity. We met them, start talking, and we met you, started talking.
Rick Kiley: Yeah.
Jeff Koz: And here we are. So, there’s that, and then there’s– I’m also going to admit that we’re not a create-a-spreadsheet, look-at-the-data kind of company. We probably should be a lot more. And I think as we grow, we will have those people in place that can help us with that kind of information because neither of us are sort of– that’s not who we are innately.
Jeffrey Boedges: You seem like a much more creative-led company than data-led, just…
Jeff Koz: Yes. I mean, we’re good business people, but she’s an artist in the kitchen. And I’m a musician, for God’s sake. Somehow, we do this, but we do have preferences. So, we are looking at Michigan and Massachusetts for anyone out there who would like to license our brand and manufacture and sell and distribute.
But like I said, we’ll probably be doing Oklahoma, Illinois, I mean, obviously, New Jersey where you are. Jeff just got legalization, and they’re going to grow like wildfire as well as New York. So, I think there are a lot of opportunities on the East Coast because there are newer states, there’s less brands.
Jeffrey Boedges: It’s far, far less developed.
Jeff Koz: If we go to Colorado, there’s a lot going on there.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah, it’s interesting in the whole northeast, in general, because it’s got as many people as California, but it’s far, far less developed.
Jeff Koz: Right, which is exciting as a brand to try to get in on a little more of the ground floor earlier on.
Rick Kiley: Yeah. Well, because the medical programs have been around for a while and there’s a lot of edibles that are there, but they’re very pharmaceutically packed. They are very much like mints or gummies, I think, than tinctures. So, there’s definitely an opportunity for creativity.
But I do think that the market that’s participating in the legal market out here is up to speed on dosage and I think some of the elements that will help the understanding of your product when they look at it. So, I’m sure you’ll have a lot of good opportunity here, and it’s great. Looking forward to it.
I’m curious, so you mentioned the music background, both for you and your sister being at MTV, how does that figure into your brand at all? Are you producing events that incorporate music? Like do you bring that aspect of who you are into the brand at all or how you reach people, connect with people?
Jeff and I, of course, we work on the event side of the world and are always thinking about brand activations, and music, of course, provides an opportunity to make connections, especially in this category. So, I’d be curious what, if anything, you’re doing.
Jeff Koz: Great question. But the first thing that pops into my head on the music side is when we got into this business, the kind of music that sort of goes with cannabis culture, it’s just not sort of something that I related to as a musician. Like, I just go to a completely different place from a more wanting to put words on it. But it just wasn’t something that I relate to, like a reggae festival or whatever.
So, for that reason, I think music hasn’t been a big component. But that said, I’m a musician. Our younger brother is a world-famous jazz saxophonist, and we certainly talked about it, about doing some sort of activation. But again, it’s kind of weird because that’s not necessarily a Canada space, his fan base.
Jeffrey Boedges: Come on, jazz and weed. I mean, I think…
Jeff Koz: It’s more of white wine and jazz.
Rick Kiley: That’s fine, too.
Jeff Koz: So far.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah.
Rick Kiley: I think people, I don’t know.
Jeffrey Boedges: I, for one, would buy Kenny G cookies. I’m just going to go out there and say it. So, if he…
Rick Kiley: Kenny G cookies.
Jeffrey Boedges: I need some jazz, maybe, you know.
Jeff Koz: I hate to say it, but that’s kind of what we’re talking about. But it’s also the musician’s relationship with their fans and the part of the demographic they relate to. And so, I think those kind of brands, like a Bob Marley influence on the Marley brand, that kind of makes sense because Santana, I think, got involved with some weed brands.
Rick Kiley: Yeah, I mean, I think there are definitely like some music tropes that are out there, but it seems to be you’re building this brand which when we listen to you talk and you tell your story, you can tell that it’s a very authentic story. There’s a lot of passion in connection to your roots, your family. And if these are things that are part of who you are as people, I think there would be a natural way to incorporate it.
And I’m a big fan of people owning like micro-markets. Like, why not be the weed cookie that people who like jazzy? Like that’d probably be fine for a while, like that’ll help you build a core fan base. So, no, I was just asking. We love live events, and music plays a role in a lot of them. So, just curious as to what you’re doing.
Jeff Koz: It’s actually a really, really good point is that you can kind of micro focus on it. And no, there’s definitely– I mean, just using my brother’s example, he has rabid fans.
Rick Kiley: Sure.
Jeff Koz: If he says go back, go smoke some weed, I don’t know if I’ll go that far, but no, he’s very influential over his audience. And obviously, that’s not what you would think of as the typical cannabis audience. But I do think you raise a lot of great points. The other really obvious reason why we haven’t done a lot of it is budget. We’re a bootstrapped company and we’ve gotten to this point without an outside investment. But actually, and I can’t like…
Rick Kiley: Congrats.
Jeff Koz: … jinx anything, but I mean, the dollars aren’t in the bank yet, but we’ve done a deal with– we’re super excited. Super, super excited. It’s our first time taking in outside money that is going to give us the ability to do a lot of things that we’ve been scratching around but not really haven’t been able to dive in heavily. So, maybe that is, like music activation, or some sort of concept. We should…
Rick Kiley: Yeah, absolutely. I’m thinking of like a Top Chef kind of like vibe. But for cooking with people who want to be able to become home bakers or something, I don’t know. I think there are a lot of people who love culinary shows and love culinary events. And I feel like you could make a great Dr. Norm’s bake-off kind of event. People would have a blast.
Jeff Koz: Roberta has been all over that. So, yeah, we’re definitely interested in that realm of taking the cooking and lifestyle, and also adding some humor because we kind of joke around a lot.
Rick Kiley: Sure.
Jeff Koz: But like, if you think about because there have been some weed cooking shows and– has anybody really nailed it out there, where it’s sort of crossed over into the– I don’t know.
Jeffrey Boedges: The closest thing I can think of is Snoop Dogg and Martha, but it’s not a weed cooking show.
Jeff Koz: Right.
Jeffrey Boedges: But it could be. But, yeah, I was also thinking about ingredients and like wouldn’t it be interesting? Because really, no one’s selling weed flour, which would be– I mean, obviously, it sounds different than what I intend, but if there was a way to actually be able to make your own weed stuff that’s got a produce would be interesting too.
Jeff Koz: That’s very interesting. Do you mind if I just steal that?
Rick Kiley: Yeah.
Jeffrey Boedges: All yours.
Rick Kiley: It’s good. Oh, the frozen cookie dough does big sales at the corner bakery, too. So, they sell these cookies. I’m like, oh, these are amazing. They’re like, yeah, we got the cookie dough in the freezer. You just pop ‘em in the oven for 20 minutes and they’re like, oh.
Jeff Koz: There is a California brand or two that do offer that, and we have explored that. Again, when you’re a small company, it takes a lot to commit to like we’re doing this.
Jeffrey Boedges: For sure.
Rick Kiley: Yeah.
Jeff Koz: We’re risking time and money.
Rick Kiley: Yeah. And that’s something that has to go in a refrigerator too, which I’ve been told is just a different bridge to have to cross when you’re in retail. You got to go from the shelf to the fridge, you got a whole new set of hurdles to jump through. Cool. Well, look, actually, this has sort of flown by, we’re getting towards the end of our time here. I’m curious, two things, because we always end our interviews in the same way, but I’ll come back to that in a second. So, we’ve talked about brownies and cookies and Rice Krispies Treats, is there something in the innovation pipeline that you’re excited about that’s coming up that hasn’t been released yet?
Jeff Koz: Well, one line has just been released. And literally, it’s another show that you can have multiple people want to talk about this, which is the rapid-onset edible.
Rick Kiley: Okay.
Jeff Koz: That’s becoming a huge trend. Well, we are ahead of the curve on that because we’re the first baked goods company to release products in the nanotechnology rapid onset.
Rick Kiley: It’s not just for Star Trek anymore, everyone.
Jeff Koz: No.
Rick Kiley: Nanotech.
Jeff Koz: And there’s nano-emulsified beverages out here and gummies. And so, now, there are nano-emulsified cookies, cookies and cream flavor, they’re so good. And then we did a crunchy toasted cinnamon, I can’t say Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
Jeffrey Boedges: No.
Jeff Koz: That’s a brand name of cereal.
Rick Kiley: But I can. It’s Cinnamon Toast Crunch, guys, that’s wheatie. It’s Cinnamon Toast Crunch Wheaties.
Jeffrey Boedges: Wheaties.
Jeff Koz: So, wheaties. So, that’s delicious, too. So, we’re super excited because those products have literally as low as a 15-minute or less onset. So, that’s a real game changer.
Rick Kiley: Does the duration shorten as well for that type of product? Because that’s my only downside, like an edible, when you get into it, it’s a commitment for an afternoon or for several hours or whatever. So, a 15-minute onset sounds great, but is it then only lasting like 90 minutes or two hours rather than four or five?
Jeff Koz: I think it’s like in the three-hour kind of range, but I think it’s different…
Rick Kiley: For everybody.
Jeff Koz: … results in areas, they say. But I think there are some advantages to that also because it’s now a choice. So, one thing that I really noticed with the nano stuff is that the drop-off at the end of your experience is pretty fast, and just like the onset is fast. And afterwards, I don’t feel cloudy unlike I did in edible a few hours ago, and it’s just only going to go away when I go…
Rick Kiley: Yeah.
Jeffrey Boedges: That’s great for people going home, I mean, people who experience this at a dinner or a concert or something like that.
Rick Kiley: Absolutely.
Jeffrey Boedges: And then they can even not have to be worried about being dysfunctional.
Jeff Koz: There are some people that are like, dude, I want my five-hour high, so.
Rick Kiley: Sure, fine, you still have that, but there are professionals in the world that want to go out, like have a good time and then be able to turn it off and find their way home in a reasonably safe manner, that like end up…
Jeffrey Boedges: I think that’s a huge selling thing that people haven’t really discovered as a selling point. I think that’s one of those things people are going to figure it out. And then marketers will probably be sold to the…
Jeff Koz: I think you’re right. And you’ve given me an idea, actually, for marketing. So, that’s a good point, so.
Rick Kiley: That’s what we do.
Jeff Koz: So, nano is something that, I don’t think we jumped on the bandwagon, but we’re wanting to start, be part of the bandwagon growing. And so far, the market has been very receptive to that. The other thing that we’re excited about is our next product line, which is a sleep line. So, we came up with the name Sleep Well, and so, we’re going to be releasing products in different categories under the same Sleep Well heading.
And the differentiator there for us is we’re employing nano and we’re nanotizing. So, for these products, we use the CBN, cannabinoid, which really promotes rest, sleep, relaxation, anti-stress, so really good for sleep. But I don’t believe there’s any products out there that have nanotized the CBN. So, we’re offering fast-acting CBN and fast-acting THC. And actually, we’ve used a little THC just to live in it also, so that speaks to a longer acting. So, you don’t have like what we were just talking about. You can get a longer acting too.
Rick Kiley: Got it.
Jeff Koz: So, our first product is gummy. That should be coming out in about a month.
Rick Kiley: Cool.
Jeff Koz: We’re just working on the packaging. And then we’re doing like a little, Roberta calls it a Sleep Bite, which is a tiny-sized little brownie or cookie. And each of these has like five milligrams THC. And I think we’re going do 2 to 1 on most of them and 2.5 milligrams CBN, which is very powerful.
And we have a few other tricks up our sleeve as far as our nano line, but we’re doing a little differently as opposed to releasing a whole line of sweet mints and a lot coming through, a mint for energy, sleep, relaxation, whatever, five different, a sweet of that. We’re coming out with a sweet just dedicated to sleep and we’re doing products in different categories that speak to that. So, we may go down in flames for this idea, but we think it’s a good idea.
Rick Kiley: Yeah, God bless you. I hope not.
Jeffrey Boedges: It’s so funny because I was thinking, like, sleep on the plane, and then you sit down in flames, and I just saw the whole idea was like this.
Rick Kiley: Oh, man, sorry. So close.
Jeff Koz: It’s getting there. It’s getting where we are in this.
Rick Kiley: So, listen, we end our interviews by telling folks, we call this podcast The Green Repeal because we started off with the intention of really charting what we imagine was a very quick road to federal legalization for the cannabis industry. So, if you were to put in over, under, up on the big board here, we ask our guests when they feel what their spidey senses tell them or actual intelligence tells them when they feel that cannabis may be federally legal for recreational use in the United States of America.
Jeffrey Boedges: I have it on good authority that Biden likes cookies before bed, just saying. So, maybe that’s a little bit of play here.
Rick Kiley: But I’m not sure he likes weed.
Jeff Koz: Maybe that explains it. That’s all I’m going to say. I’m not going to get political.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Koz: But I am very liberal. Boy, that is a tough one. And I’m sure some of your people have fought to commit to something. But when you sense sort of a brief of what we’ve been talking about, I put down three years.
Rick Kiley: Three years. Fair enough. But that would be into the second Biden administration or person to be named later administration.
Jeff Koz: Thank you. Yeah, we have to sidestep all that stuff, don’t we? I hope it’s sooner. It could be longer, just lot of a conservative energy moving. So, I don’t know if that’s going to hit cannabis or not.
Jeffrey Boedges: It’s just what’s going to win, money, energy, or conservative energy because they’re both very powerful right now.
Rick Kiley: Yeah.
Jeffrey Boedges: There’s a ton of money and we…
Rick Kiley: Money always wins. Great. Well, so, Jeff, it has been great talking to you here. If somebody wants to learn about your products, maybe if they’re in California, I know they can go pretty much to any dispensary and find them. But if someone outside want to learn about it, maybe you have someone that’s interested in licensing your brand in Michigan or some other state like that, how should they get in touch with you guys?
Jeff Koz: Well, I think best, by our website, which is DoctorNorms.com, and that is spelled out D-O-C-T-O-R-N-O-R-M-S dot com. And you can read the story of our products.
Rick Kiley: Awesome.
Jeff Koz: If you’re interested, there’s information on how to get in touch with us. I do have to say one funny thing because we…
Rick Kiley: Please.
Jeff Koz: At the very end here, we try to get D-R Norm’s.
Rick Kiley: Yeah, I was going to say, who was the original Dr. Norm’s then that had that website?
Jeff Koz: Kind of a pain in the as* to spell that out for the rest of my life. So, there’s this veterinarian in Florida. He got one veterinary shop that’s Dr. Norm’s Vet. And they will not budge off that. You can’t buy it from them. I mean, it’s hilarious.
Rick Kiley: What if you produce for him a CBD doggy treat line that he can put his name on?
Jeff Koz: You need to be on our board of advisors because you’ve given us about five great ideas in this podcast. I think you’re right. I think, bribing him without money, like…
Jeffrey Boedges: I’m guessing already that 400 people a day come to him looking for weed cookies. He’s probably tired of answering that right now, so.
Jeff Koz: Now, if we get into the Florida market, that could be huge.
Rick Kiley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well…
Jeff Koz: Can I also just say thank you so much to you guys?
Rick Kiley: Oh, no problem.
Jeff Koz: You guys are great. And I really, really appreciate you having me and us on and getting to tell our story. So, it means a lot to us to be able to– it’s a family thing and it’s about mom and dad and siblings. We’ll talk about that.
Jeffrey Boedges: It’s been our pleasure.
Jeff Koz: So, thank you so much.
Rick Kiley: You’re welcome. It’s great to see you. Hopefully, we’ll get your sister on one of these days, have you both come back, and we’ll just have you make fun of each other or something like that. I don’t know how the sibling stuff works, and it’ll be a nice stuff.
Jeffrey Boedges: I think we do a remote thing from the wedding. I’m just going to go out.
Rick Kiley: Oh, yeah.
Jeffrey Boedges: Yeah.
Jeff Koz: Boy, that would be great.
Rick Kiley: Jeff and I often offer up our bartending services for weddings. So, if you want some guest bartenders that know the alcohol beverage space pretty well…
Jeff Koz: What’s your specialty?
Jeffrey Boedges: People hammering.
Rick Kiley: Yeah. Speed of service.
Jeffrey Boedges: Fast onset drink, too.
Jeff Koz: Rapid onset.
Rick Kiley: Shots.
Jeff Koz: Okay.
Rick Kiley: Jeff, it’s so great talking to you. Thanks so much.
Jeff Koz: Thank you guys so much.